> We have taken note of your concerns and, while we cannot comment on ongoing dialogue with gatekeepers, these considerations will form part of our assessment of the justifications for the verification process provided by Google.
>
> Kind regards,
> The DMA Team
... 3/3
Discussion
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@fdroidorg @marcprux Hi Hello what it means : « Clippy would never block your application freedom and claim it's to protect you from malware. » at the end of the petition ?
@fdroidorg something for the @EUCommission. I'd be surprised if this did not violate the DSA/DMA. Can we maybe get a _quick_ solution, not some hardly sufficient fines which will only get paid after years in the courts while the harm continues?
> We know users will rarely visit the site so the Client(s) will get a banner soon too.
The new release of Neo Store (published today) already has it. And our website has it as well: https://izzyondroid.org/
@fdroidorg @marcprux I've really appreciated F-Droud lately. I'm setting up a new Lenovo Tab3 running 5.0.1 - 99% of my apps have been sideloaded APKs. Google doesn't support it, so no updates but they don't keep trying to "improve" my experience either.
Thank you for the information and links at https://keepandroidopen.org/
Got a relatively generic and neutral but friendly response.
I'm still unsure whether this contributes a drop to filling the ocean... 🤔
@fdroidorg @marcprux
I believe it's essential to defend our freedom and privacy on Android. It's concerning to see how options for users are being restricted. We all deserve control over our devices and protection of our data. Supporting initiatives like this is an important step toward a more open future.
@fdroidorg @marcprux
This is the reason why i removed some of my apps from Play Store and i only develop with frameworks that allow creating apps that work with linux-first phones like Pinephone
@fdroidorg Good to know that Google are keeping their track about "Apple-izing" themselves.
They just waited until there were absolutely zero competitor to close the whole thing.
Time to degoogleize all mobile OSes 😮💨
@fdroidorg But I thought “open always wins.” 🤦♂️
#Google when talking in court against #EpicGames: "we are open"
Google when talking with #FLOSS devs: "not for you"
@fdroidorg @marcprux super chiant ce Google qui vérouile tout.
@Framasoft est- ce que çà concerne uniquement l'Os Android "Google"? Ou est-ce que ce sera valable pour toures les version Android " degoogleisées" comme lineageOs ou /e/os par exemple ?
@fdroidorg @marcprux I think it is useless to keep android open. As long as google controls it, it is a sinking ship.
Much better to move to other alternatives like Jolla or other linuxbased options and rebuild from scratch.
Does anyone know how this affects phones that already have F-Droid and apps from there installed?
Will some Android/Google Update make them stop working all of a sudden? Or not let me update them anymore? Or will this affect only future Android versions?
@v_d_richards No info on that, no info on anything actually.
@fdroidorg@floss.social I live in China. We don't have representatives to contact. Even Google doesn't provide service to users here directly. Please do NOT show the useless header to users from China. I love F-Droid and FOSS in general but the header would be useless and annoying.
@oldherl The little X will dismiss it, if annoying 😛
If Google doesn't want to place nice, I suppose we have options...
You have to know how to make a report correctly. It's not for average doomscroller.
We don't have representatives, we live in capitalism. All those elected to run government represent multinational industries and their federation, banks and financial institutions. We are their enemy, they are not going to listen.
Unless....
We force them to listen
@fdroidorg i hope @shiftphones has planned for this already 
@fdroidorg
Thank you for your amazing work. For me its time to switch to Linux in under 200 days.
@fdroidorg @marcprux #e_mydata e/os is one of the aswers.
@fdroidorg @marcprux : pour ma part, j'ai un fairphone 4 avec e/os installé, avec F-droid dedans depuis quelques années déjà et cette info ne me surprend nullement.
@marcprux @fdroidorg There ist no freedom in capitalism.
@fdroidorg @marcprux why is @GrapheneOS not listed? this feels a little bit like fearmongering
@nathanael @GrapheneOS Custom Android distros are not affected because they care about the freedom of their users.
@fdroidorg@floss.socia not sure i get what you're saying. we shouldn't support grapheneos cause they are not affected?!
Support These Projects
These projects are working to provide much-needed competition in the mobile hardware space.
cc @GrapheneOS
@nathanael @GrapheneOS We should be allies in the Android ecosystem (specially during these days) but they choose to be frenemies for some reason.
Fun fact: We talked with more GOS users at FOSDEM than stock Android users. 🤔
@fdroidorg because they decided to be enemies you don't list them? this is childish. they might have an opinion you don't like. so what? get over it. saying this:
These projects are working to provide much-needed competition in the mobile hardware space.
and not listing grapheneos makes you the bad guys in my book...
@fdroidorg @marcprux will this affect lineage phones? (or any other roms)
Directly or indirectly?
@simx72 Custom Android distros can and do choose to free their users from such shackles.
@fdroidorg @marcprux Contacted the Department of Justice and the US Federal Trade Commission with a request of acknowledgement from both. 👌
@fdroidorg @marcprux told'ya google are evil, zionists evil. resists! 💪
@fdroidorg @marcprux its a good thing actually as the main thing it affects is intimate partner violence stalking and really low hanging fruit malware. you can literally still sideload, you just cant distribute apks anonymously. you can still modify a phone to remove the restriction, just not without the owner noticing, which is the actual point. this is completely out of touch with the reality of the android malware ecosystem, the harm it causes and why they are actually doing this.
@marcprux@mastodon.social @fisk@little.tinypuppy.dog @fdroidorg@floss.social
Having to pay a company and send your government id to that company, who will absolutely turn that data over to the government, is not an acceptable way to develop software.
Especially as that government is actively targeting dissenters and anyone who opposes them.
Especially as that company is making plans to go into the PC space, creating computers more locked down than Windows.
Especially as that company already has an 'anti-virus' activated on every Android licensed device by default that flags and prevents these malicious apps.
@liquidparasyte @fdroidorg @marcprux Most open-source apps are already published to Google Play. I use a degoogled phone and this will not affect me in any way. It will absolutely affect people who will have to burn through disposable identities to develop malware.
@marcprux@mastodon.social @fisk@little.tinypuppy.dog @fdroidorg@floss.social
It will also affect developers who choose to or have to stay anonymous to protect themselves from bad actors like rogue governments, and make it harder to develop software that authorities do not want made, such as emulation software, or adblocking tools and clients, or law enforcement raid watches.
Your personal exclusion from these restrictions does not solve the problem for developers, nor the majority of people who use Android who can't, don't know how to, or afford a degoogled device.
@liquidparasyte @fdroidorg @marcprux apparently they have already backed down and will people bypass it so i dont even understand what the issue is lol
@fisk @liquidparasyte Maybe we were lost in translation? Google did not back down, they appear to double down and continue on track... The "advanced flow" was never shown to anyone, also even if that will exist it will not be by September 2026 but at a later unannounced date.
@fdroidorg
Did you secure your build environment yet? Why must you re-sign everything instead of using signed artifacts from developers?
Until then, #Obtainium.
@apicultor If you have questions why not drop by and ask directly? https://f-droid.org/about/#contact Posts from 2021 and half-truths on forums won't give you the information you need.
@apicultor Everything we do is transparent and public, eg. https://floss.social/@fdroidorg/116086537617519438
unfortunately my country has crashed. Abort, retry, fail?
@fdroidorg @marcprux
Si china puede hacer un clon de Android, ¿Acaso no puede hacerlo Europa?
¿Para cuando un Linux para dispositivos móviles?
¿hasta cuando seguiremos siendo vasallos de las multinacionales norteamericanas?
¿Para cuando nuestra delcaración de Soberania Digital?
¡Sin Soberania Digital no hay libertad, independencia ni democrácia!
@fdroidorg @marcprux
Got a quick answer from EU's DMA Team, they might have a standard response due to high demand :
> Dear citizen,
>
> Thank you for contacting us and sharing your concerns regarding the impact of Google’s plans to introduce a developer verification process on Android. We appreciate that you have chosen to contact us, as we welcome feedback from interested parties.
... 1/N
Can you give me a link where you contacted in the EU and how? I am a bit overwhelmed on where to report my concerns.
I still have problems to understand what happens with apps like those of fossify, or DuckDuckGo for example, that i downloaded and maintain over F-Droid, but that are also available on Playstore and thus should be under the "verified" category.
These should still work but not the F-Droid Store App itself so i need to update via a website manually???
I am not an IT person. I really have problems understanding this, despite having read the infos i found so far.
@v_d_richards If signed by the developer (reproducible) and the developer has submitted to the Google pressure, the app will work fine.
If signed by F-Droid, we think they will not work at all, not even our Client, so we will not be able to provide updates.
For those apps already on Play you will submit to Google's rules and use Play, right?
For those not on Play... good luck tracking the APK, if the developer bowed down.
I hated Google before, but do more every day.
I had hoped that if Apps and their developers took it on them to do the verification shit, loading and maintaining at least such apps from other places than PlayStore would be possible in Android.
The users are trapped:
Banking Apps and some others don' t work with Custom Roms.
Open Source from free places will no longer work on G-Android.
The only solution is havingntwo devices which is expensive af.
I.hate.Google.so.much.
> As you may be aware, the Digital Markets Act (‘DMA’) obliges gatekeepers like Google to effectively allow the distribution of apps on their operating system through third party app stores or the web. At the same time, the DMA also permits Google to introduce strictly necessary and proportionate measures to ensure that third-party software apps or app stores do not endanger the integrity of the hardware or operating system or to enable end users to effectively protect security.
... 2/3
> We have taken note of your concerns and, while we cannot comment on ongoing dialogue with gatekeepers, these considerations will form part of our assessment of the justifications for the verification process provided by Google.
>
> Kind regards,
> The DMA Team
... 3/3
As said by #FDroid team, keep sending emails, requests and letters to regulators ! They **need** these requests to have any leverage on lawmakers.
@Preuk Yes, standard text. Maybe we should encourage people to mention that not being able to install software on a device can't be a necessary and proportionate measure to begin with.
@Preuk @fdroidorg We received the same email back despite specifying it is certainly disproportionate.
That is... Dissapointing to say the least.
@fdroidorg @marcprux
How will this effect LineageOS and other android alternatives?
@TTFKA_Tay0 To be fair, they are not alternatives, they use the same code, and are at the mercy of Google when it comes to releasing such code. Otherwise, once installed, Lineage and other Android distributions can give the freedom back to their users to install what they want.
@fdroidorg @marcprux Wow, a crucial warning! ⚠️ It's time to be vigilant and take action to keep Android open and our privacy safe.
google is an integral part of the security/surveillance state. they're not susceptible to public opinion. hopefully the tech crowd will continue to develop alternatives.
@fdroidorg Maybe a Federated Fone?
@fdroidorg @volla Will VollaOS be affected? And how?
@fdroidorg hey gang, I host @crossed, would anyone from the F-Droid team like to come chat to us about this and why this fundamentally breaks the Android promise?
Aren ’t the government and the EU officials being contacted already?
I would prefer a way to have the opportunity to change the behaviour of what I can and what I can’t do on my phone – like a "free"-"unfree" switch to be easily used on my phone. As I won’t bet that politics is willing to to the job in the next 200 days.
@_RyekDarkener_ It's not only about "your" phone, but of your friends and family too. Note that Google knows PR really well, people already relaxed and forgot about this, as media just repeated the Google texts verbatim.
Jep. And to my understanding this is officially a crime in an area where law already exists. I’m no lawyer. But I’m quite confident the case will come to court.
I’m very much struggling with the idea that our politicians do not know what happens.
@_RyekDarkener_ Being blocked on 99% of devices for four years until we win such a court case is not the best path
I agree. So – as I said – waiting for politics may be much as waiting for godot.
I would like to have an operating system for my current – and any other – smartphone to be easy installed via otg stick. Like any other computer. A lot of this is already in place. And frankly spoken I don’t think that 95% of the current users care if they can use F-Droid or not. I like F-Droid. But sadly it is elitist currently and not mainstream.
@_RyekDarkener_ We'd like to know, what makes it elitist though? As we are always working on making it easier to use so it achieves mainstream usage.
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@fdroidorg @marcprux What am I supposed to say they're doing that's illegal when I complain?
"Please exercise powers you don't have to do a thing I know you fully support and instead listen to me, who you don't give two fucks about. I don't even have a dollar to bribe you with."
No, seriously. What do I put in this form? I haven't a clue. There's no point if I can't even attempt to be convincing and I don't know one single thing that would convince anyone of anything here.
@crazyeddie The top section has a "You, the consumer" text that you could mention to the private person, and one named "You, the state" that puts things into perspective for them as a representative of the people.
@fdroidorg That's actually seriously unhelpful. Cool though. I'll just focus on helping anyone that wants install lineage or something. Screaming directly into a trash can is pointless anyway but if there was actually something I could say that would like suggest a step to take or law that's being broken or something I might have bothered. Clearly there's just bitching about how shit's being ruined and they don't give a shit.
@crazyeddie Is the "United States" section is not enough, we might need some better pointers.
@fdroidorg It just sends me to a place where I can report an antitrust claim. Like say google is breaking the law and needs to be investigated.
I don't know what I'd tell them they're doing wrong nor what steps should be taken. I'm especially baffled because we already let Apple do this shit.
I can't just complain about stuff on a crime reporting form. I need to be reporting something.
The defunct email addresses in that section are depressing.
Who let this monopoly game go so long?
Tell me your corrupt without telling us all just how effing corrupt you are!
Did Google not change course with their "high friction flow"?
@PVTejas No one saw that flow, so until then, all their posts are PR media control.
@fdroidorg No one *wanted* to see what Google was up to. I.e. autoredirects in G Maps, Youtube playback failures were ramped up to unusability. This is no surprise.
Who actually didn‘t see that was already living inside G-defined boundaries, i.E. having a G account, using Youtube via G-controlled browser, using Maps via G app, …
Remains a mystery to me why people use a OS/browser made by the major advertising predator, known mainly for working against humans.
@fdroidorg As a big fan and user of F-Droid, I'm afraid the writing is on the wall.
As others have said, we can no longer rely on Android being what it needs to be.
A true alternative is required.
RE: https://floss.social/@fdroidorg/116086115016017602
Wie sieht das dann mit z. B. GrapheneOS oder /e/OS aus? Sind die damit auch aus dem Spiel?
Zumindest bei z. B. einem Fairphone mit /e/OS hätte ich die Hoffnung, dass die auch weiterhin nutzbar wären?
@fdroidorg @murena @gael What will this mean for Murena users?
make a new mobile os without google?
@fdroidorg @marcprux 200 days till lock down. That means about half a year to finish my divorce from Google and find a replacement phone.
Ironically this is the first news lately that has not made me feel horribly behind schedule.
@fdroidorg @marcprux
I did use the means on https://keepandroidopen.org to reach out. However, I am not convinced it will change the course Alphabet/Google set for Android.
Therefore I preordered the new #jollaphone with Sailfish OS and AndroidAppSupport.
Maybe it is time for Linux to shine on mobile as well. May it be #sailfishos, #postmarketos, #ubuntutouch or another Linux mobile OS. And Android emulators like #WayDroid .
@fdroidorg @marcprux And while the banner correctly states F-Droid being under threat: it's not just F-Droid, it's the free Android world being under threat. In its entirety. So the same applies to IzzyOnDroid – but also to Obtainium & Co. And if you think you could still use Aurora to access the PlayStore, think again: how would you install Aurora in the first place?
This is the empire striking. The alleged "security" is just a way to circumvent the requirement to open for alternative stores.
@fdroidorg @marcprux
i don't like to downplay f-droid efforts, or spread pessimism.
still, my unfortunate opinion. android starts to be lost cause, too much gooish google in it, like there is apple control in apple devices.
it is not just closed google components, it is android ecosystem and api's in general. alphabet inc controls android too much.
of course, delaying destruction of open android is still beneficial for short term.
Die Website "FDroid" hat ein neues Banner, um die Besucher daran zu erinnern, dass "Google den Kurs nicht geändert hat" und "Android" in weniger als 200 Tagen gesperrt wird.
Datenschutz- und Regulierungsbehörden sind ernsthaft besorgt über Monopole und die zunehmende Machtkonzentration im Technologiesektor – und sie möchten die Stimmen der Betroffenen hören.
Für weitere Infos: https://keepandroidopen.org/de/
@fdroidorg @marcprux Why is #grapheneos not on https://keepandroidopen.org/ ? Holy war again?
@cy8aer @fdroidorg @marcprux iirc grapheneos disagrees with fdroid's signature model (where all apps are signed by fdroid and builds aren't really reproducible), among other things. However, I don't think this is the case here. You may ping them and ask if you want.
Here is some insight of you wanna go down the rabbit hole: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/7519-f-droid-security/10
@Alonely0 @cy8aer Older apps were added when reproducibility wasn't achievable. For this reason today only about 22% of apps that we host are signed by their developer. This number will increase with time as we push for reproducibility at inclusion time. Also, switching from one signer to another is an annoying process that users need to take manually, for security reasons.
@fdroidorg @cy8aer tysm! I didn't know this was the case.
@Alonely0 @cy8aer @fdroidorg @marcprux
I read some of those threads linked from the discuss link. This whole situation is exhausting. Multiple ways to get screwed over on multiple fronts. The layman has no chance to understand any of this.
And then, of course, you'll get a pithy "use ubuntu" reply to these threads, which is fine if you have one of the 12 old phones supported by it.
I don't know what the solution is, but if the answer is "get the apk from github and ensure you trust the dev" then essentially everyone is screwed.
@tehstu @cy8aer @fdroidorg @marcprux yeah, it's a technical discussion, sorry I assumed more than I should have (it's an xkcd 2501 situation, look it up lol). However, I have to say that relying on GitHub releases is not that bad of a deal with an app store like Obtainium, which streamlines app updates. It's actually a quite secure model since it comes as straight from the developer as it possibly can.
@Alonely0 @tehstu @cy8aer Note that Obtainium, Aurora and other app stores will have the same issues on 99.9999% of devices if Google goes ahead. Regarding "secure", do read https://f-droid.org/docs/Inclusion_How-To/#reproducible-builds too.
@fdroidorg @tehstu @cy8aer of course. It's a battle we fight together regardless of preference for app stores or ROMs. Ty for attaching sources!
